316L Food Grade Stainless Steel
Titanium vs. 316L Stainless Steel |
Smack Talk |
Bob Boyce |
Is this another Marketing Scheme? Are we being fed
all, Electrolysis is a Chemical process.
process by which electric
passed through a substance to effect a chemical
The chemical change is one in which the substance loses or gains an
electron (oxidation or reduction). The process is carried out in an electrolytic
an apparatus consisting of positive and negative electrodes held
apart and dipped into a solution containing positively and negatively
charged ions (electrolyte). The substance to be transformed may form the
electrode, may constitute the solution (Water), or may be dissolved in
the solution. Electric current (i.e., electrons)
enters through the negatively charged electrode (cathode);
positively charged components of the solution travel to this electrode,
combine with the electrons, and are transformed to neutral elements or
molecules (Hydrogen). The negatively charged components of the solution
travel to the other electrode (anode),
give up their electrons, and are transformed into neutral elements or
molecules (Oxygen). If the substance to be transformed is the electrode,
the reaction is generally one in which the electrode dissolves by giving
Laws of electrolysis.
The English chemist Michael Faraday was one of the first
scientists to investigate electrolysis. After many careful experiments
and calculations, he stated the following three "laws" governing
electrolysis (laws, not theories):
1. The ability of an electric current to cause
electrolysis does not depend on the distance between the electrodes.
2. The quantity of a substance that is electrolyzed is
proportional to the quantity of the electricity used.
3. The quantity of a substance that is electrolyzed
(water) is also proportional to the substance's chemical equivalent. The
chemical equivalent of a metal is its atomic weight (in grams) divided
by its valiancy.
Faraday found that approximately 96,500 coulombs of
electricity are required to electrolyze one chemical equivalent of any
metal. For example, the atomic weight of copper is 63.54, and the
valence of copper salts is +2. Therefore, the chemical equivalent of a
copper salt solution is 31.77 grams. This amount of copper will plate
out onto the cathode when 96,500 coulombs are passed through the
The number of coulombs that flow in each second is
measured in units called amperes. Voltage is like an electrical pressure
that pushes the coulombs through the circuit. In electrolysis, voltage
is just as important as amperage. A certain minimum voltage is needed to
produce electrolysis in any given substance. For example, a minimum of
1.23 volts is needed to electrolyze water (containing Battery Acid) to hydrogen and oxygen at 25
Physical Properties of Titanium
Electrical Conductivity and Resistivity. The
flow of electrons across a metal due to a drop in potential is known as
electrical conductivity. The atomic structure of a metal strongly
influences its electrical behavior.
Titanium is not a good conductor of electricity.
If the conductivity of copper is considered to be 100%, titanium would
have a conductivity of 3.1%. From this it follows that titanium would
not be used where good conductivity is a prime factor.
For comparison, stainless steel would have a
conductivity of 3.5% and aluminum would have a conductivity of
30%. So titanium is less conductive than stainless steel. That means it
contains more resistance than stainless steel. That means it will
produce more heat from electron flow than stainless steel; even though
it may be slight.
Magnetic Properties. If
a metal is placed in a magnetic field, a force is exerted on it. The
intensity of the magnetization, called M, can be measured in terms of
the force exerted and its relation to the magnetic field strength, H,
depending upon the susceptibility, K, which is a property of the metal.
Metals have a wide variance in susceptibility, and can be classified
in three groups:
The Diamagnetic Substances in which K is small and negative, and
thus are feebly repelled by a magnetic field; examples are
copper, silver, gold, and bismuth.
The Paramagnetic Substances in which K is small and positive,
and thus are slightly attracted by a magnetic field; the alkali,
alkaline, and the non-ferromagnetic transition metals fall in
this group (it can be seen that titanium
and aluminum are slightly Paramagnetic)
The Ferromagnetic Substances, which have a large K value and are
positive; iron, cobalt, nickel, and gallium fall under this
An important feature of this Group, besides the strong
attraction in a magnetic field, is the fact that these metals
retain their magnetization after being removed from the magnetic
field. Iron and Stainless Steel are in this group.
is reported that Parahydrogen can be converted to Orthohydrogen via
a Magnetic Field. It is interesting that Titanium is weak in that
category. So where were do companies get their information that
states that Titanium makes a higher percentage of orthohydrogen,
than stainless steel. How is it possible, when a string magnetic
field is required, and titanium is a non-contributor. Oh, they say
it is because titanium contains no chromium. Well 316L food grade
stainless is safe enough for human consumption, so where is the
chromium count? It certainly does not appear (yellow) in the water.
Eagle Research - George Wiseman's
Conductivity of Titanium vs. Steel
January 17, 2010
Hi, I may have some light to shed on this matter. I work
with titanium and steel, I make knives at home in my spare time and work
in a titanium foundry for a living. I generally deal in O1 steel due to
the fact that I am not set up to pound out a hot blade so I use a form
and cut method. Steel reaches a certain point (Via heat index) were it
is no longer magnetic. This is something you need to do to it during
your de-tempering process and when you then turn around and re-instate
the temper back into the blade. The heat range for steel to be
nonmagnetic is somewhere in the neighborhood of 550 degrees F.
Most commercial grade and jewelry grade titanium has been
processed to a point that it maintains a nonmagnetic status even at room
temp. This is one of the reasons it makes such a good commercial grade
metal for internal combustion parts ext., but also the reason it makes
such crappy knives. You see it lacks very much carbon, if it has any at
all in it is but a fraction of what steel has and it is the carbon in
your metals that make them rigid enough to hold a good clean edge for a
good long time, it is also the element that causes metal to be magnetic.
Titanium is also not very conductive of heat or
electricity. It will conduct either but not as well as copper, aluminium
and good old steel. Another thing that makes it so good at what we use
it for. All in all titanium is cold, rigid, and sub conductive (Kind of
like my ex wife) and for hunting and fishing application I think steel
is a much better metal. Thanks for your time
- Madras Oregon
Electrical Conductivity & Resistivity for Titanium
and Titanium Alloys
Conductivity $ Resistivity for Stainless Steel and other Iron Alloys
Periodic Table of Titanium Ti
MIXED METAL OXIDE COATED
ANODE ( MMO COATED ANODES ) : :
MMO Coated Anodes are
manufactured by coating a mixture of precious metal oxides on a
specially treated precious metal. The coated substrate undergoes
multiple thermal treatments at elevated temperatures to gain good
bonding properties between the substrate & coating. This bonding
property increases the lifetime of anodes.
Titanium is widely used as substrate material for its well-known
characteristics like, resistance to corrosion, resistance to chemical
attacks and its high mechanical strength.
TiTaN’s Tantalum, Niobium and Zirconium anodes are also used globally
for different applications.
TiTaN’s MMO coated anodes are in high demand in the global market for
its excellent electrolytic properties and low wear rate of the coating.
NB: Coating wear rate will vary according to the resistivity and the
chemical property of the electrolyte.
Smack Talk (gets
info from Boyce, the guy that told us HHO would self ignite if
stored over 15 PSI)
" It does not " But don't under estimate Bob's knowledge
What's so special about Titanium?
These new Titanium Substrate HHO Cells produce a more pure form of HHO
Oh Really? Well, how much more? Titanium has a higher resistance than ss,
so it conducts less. And it is non-magnetic. So what properties produces
a purer gas.
Also, unlike Stainless Steel, Titanium will not leach hexavalent
chromium during electrolysis, which has been a major concern for HHO
enthusiasts from the beginning.
Well, yes 304 SS you use does, but not 316L & 317L Food grades ! I have yet to
see signs of chromium when using all 316L stainless steel in the water.
Molybdenum is used in 316 and 317 SS to restrict chromium leaching.
Here's a quote from EletrikRide about
the superiority of Titanium HHO Generators over Stainless Steel:
"Chromium ions in the HHO gas of Stainless Steel act to accelerate
the decay of orthohydrogen to
Ions in gas.
Since when is chromium part of the make up of the gas?
may be found in the water membrane, but not the gas. Orthohydrogen is 4x more reactive than parahydrogen.
Agreed ! Titanium cells make no chromium ions or other ions. That is why the HHO
gas from a Titanium Cell is more reactive."
What is your source of information? The info
below, states that the equilibrium ratio of orthohydrogen to
parahydrogen depends on temperature;
a temperature below freezing !
There exist two different spin
isomers of hydrogen diatomic
molecules that differ by the relative
spin of their nuclei. In
the orthohydrogen form,
the spins of the two protons are parallel and form a triplet state with
a molecular spin quantum number of 1 (½+½); in the parahydrogen form
the spins are anti-parallel and form a singlet with a molecular spin
quantum number of 0 (½–½). At standard temperature
and pressure, hydrogen gas contains about 25% of the para form and 75%
of the ortho form, also known as the "normal form". The
equilibrium ratio of orthohydrogen to parahydrogen depends on
temperature, but because the ortho form is an excited
state and has a higher
energy than the para form, it is unstable and cannot be purified.
At very low temperatures, the equilibrium state is
composed almost exclusively of the para form. The liquid and gas
phase thermal properties of pure parahydrogen differ significantly from
those of the normal form because of differences in rotational heat
capacities, as discussed more fully in Spin
isomers of hydrogen. The
ortho/para distinction also occurs in other hydrogen-containing
molecules or functional groups, such as water and methylene,
but is of little significance for their thermal properties.
The uncatalyzed interconversion between para and ortho H2 increases
with increasing temperature; thus rapidly condensed H2 contains
large quantities of the high-energy ortho form that converts to the para
form very slowly. The
ortho/para ratio in condensed H2 is
an important consideration in the preparation and storage of liquid
hydrogen: the conversion from ortho to para is exothermic and
produces enough heat to evaporate some of the hydrogen liquid, leading
to loss of liquefied material. Catalysts for
the ortho-para interconversion, such as ferric
carbon, platinized asbestos, rare earth metals, uranium compounds, chromic
oxide, or some nickel compounds,
are used during hydrogen cooling.
Conclusion: Cell Configuration and Conditioning determines how
efficient it is capable of operating.
Plate Voltage around 2 volts per plate. The Number of Plates
in Series determines this; not the total number of plates.
Plate Maximum Efficient Current Density = 0.54 amps per square inch
of surface area, inside the plate gasket surface area where the
water is exposed to the electrode plate; Unipolar or Bipolar.
Amperage and voltage determine the heat and the amount of HHO.
The amount of Electrolyte determines the resistive conductivity of
the water. It is the water that needs to be made to conduct; not the
conductive metal. The metal we use , stainless or titanium, is more
conductive than the electrolyte water. It is the water that
determines the amperage flow rate in our case. Water is the most
resistive link in our circuit, from the battery and back to the
The magnetic field
determines the amount of Orthohydrogen, not the type of metal
Titanium HHO Cell - Electrolyte Mixture - KOH
Potassium Hydroxide (KOH) is the proper electrolyte to be used in an MMO
Titanium Substrate HHO Cell. Potassium
Hydroxide is used because it
works the best with MMO coated titanium plates.
Titanium HHO Cell - Plates
By now you should know that the Cathode is the negative on an HHO cell,
and the Anode is the positive. On a Titanium HHO Cell, the
Cathode CANNOT be MMO coated! The
cathode must remain bare titanium or else the coating will come off during
electrolysis. Only the anode requires MMO Titanium Substrate material.
This is the reason why people have experienced problems with their MMO
Titanium HHO Cells having a very short life span.
A titanium cathode serves no special purpose. It is higher in resistance
and does not participate in the magnetic alignment of the cell plates.
HHO Gas Production MMW (Millileters
per Minute per Watt)
- avg of about 3.5 MMW
NOTE: Keep in mind that Titanium Cell HHO Gas is about 2x more
powerful than Stainless Steel Cell HHO Gas, because of the purity. So a
Titanium HHO Cell at 3.5 MMW can be likened to a Stainless Steel HHO
Cell at 7 MMW.
More Lies from Smack? There is no basis for this statement.
The electrolytic chlorine generation industry and the
"grounding" industry associated with galvanic corrosion both reference a
Mixed Metal Oxide or MMO coated Titanium electrode. The metals
referenced are NIOBIUM, PLATINUM, RUTHENIUM, IRIDIUM, etc. Does anyone
have any details on this MMO coating and the process involved in
producing this MMO coating? In addition, there seems to be new
technology out there emerging which allows the polarity of the anode and
cathode to change without damage to the coating.
The substrate is sand blasted and pickled for the removal of scales. A
paint of isopropyl alcohol with the metal chlorides along with titanium
tetra chloride is painted by brush with no metal parts. It is baked in
an oven at 400 to 600 degrees. Painting and baking done many times to
achieve the desired thickness. If wear resistance is needed iridium
chloride is added, if catalytic action is needed. then ruthenium chloride is
added, for water electrolysis, more platinum chloride is added. If high
current density is required niobium is added.
This is how you are supposed to build a Ti substrate MMO coated HHO cell
1. 3.5VDC per plate
2. Uncoated cathode
4. Low PH
5. Isolated flowing configuration.
Stay tuned for more truths and facts concerning this technology and
Well, despite claims to the contrary,
MMO/Ti does not make better gas than stainless
steel. If that stainless steel has been prepared correctly
and operated within acceptable parameters. But the same can be said
about MMO/Ti, as it also has to be applied properly and operated
within acceptable parameters. The only advantage that MMO/Ti has is
the low chromium and iron content, but for me the disadvantages
outweigh the advantages. There are other metals that also have low
chromium and iron content, and work so much better due to the lower
I for one will not be switching to MMO/Ti any time soon. Even though
MMO/Ti anodes can produce a very high quality hydroxy gas, IF
implemented well, some drawbacks of the material do not bode well
for its future in this technology.
One very major drawback is the over potential of the material, as
this forces the energy efficiency of any cells using Ti or MMO/Ti to
be at least half of the efficiency of NORMAL electrolysis, and less
than a quarter of the efficiency of my catalytic water cracking
process. The use of nickel cathodes will reduce this loss, but will
not totally eliminate it.
Another major drawback is degradation and passivation. With proper
design and implementation, lifespan can be increased, but nothing
can stop the undesired reactions. There will always be a limited
lifespan to this material. Designed operational temperature is quite
low, and any heat will serve to speed up the undesired reactions
that will destroy this material.
Another major drawback is durability. No amount of care taken in
design or implementation will make up for the lack of this material
to withstand abuse. It is very vulnerable to variations in ph and
temperature. Someone pouring in the wrong substance will damage it
quite rapidly. Once the material is damaged, it becomes totally
useless rather quickly.
So all in all, if I were going to change materials, I would not be
using Ti or MMO/Ti. I have already done the research to determine
the best materials to use. And while Ti has niche uses, it is not my
first choice. Stainless steel is less expensive. If the right
grade/quality is used, and if it is prepared and operated properly,
then it works very well for us. A more expensive option is one of
several nickel/moly alloys that are low in iron and chromium
content. This tested to be better than stainless steel, but at a
cost. It is out of the price range of most home builders.
From the Man himself.
NEED I SAY MORE?
NASA - Transition Metal Catalysts for Para to
Ortho Hydrogen Conversion
Titanium vs. 316L Stainless
- Food Grade Stainless Steel contains
Molybdenum - which inhibits the leaching of Hexavalent Chromium.
Hexavalent Chromium is a fluorescent yellow color, not brown as some
Food Grade 316L stainless steel is slightly more electrical conductive
than Titanium. (a plus for SS). These two metals will make the same
amount of gas. Neither makes a stronger gas.
Stainless Steel is Ferromagnetic, a quality that produces
higher Orthohydrogen quantities because of its magnetism. Titanium is
Paramagnetic; it is hardly affected by a magnetic field. A strong
magnetic field is essential in making Othohydrogen.
- Titanium is Unipolar. It can not be used as Neutral electrodes. It
has a Diode blocking affect; so does most Aluminum. 316L Stainless
Steel is the superior metal. It may not be as hard of a metal, as
Titanium, but its longevity is sufficient for use in Electrolysis of
- MMO coated Titanium is not superior to Titanium; it is softer. It
can not be used as a Cathode electrode; if it is, it will electroplate
the positive plate, and any neutral plates. If electrical polarity of
the plates gets reversed, the cell will not conduct. If a Titanium
Anode is less conductive, than a Stainless Steel, its only benefit of
use will be its hardness. Its rust inhibit ant abilities is no added
benefit unless all of the electrodes have the same benefit.